1. How an online restricted advice model can work alongside a traditional proposition
2. Why the use of digital technology can enhance communications with clients
3. How the use of digital technology can reduce human errors in record keeping
PRESENTER: Well, Nick, first of all, what’s good working definition of robo-advice?
NICK EATOCK: I suppose there are lots of definitions really. But there are a number of attributes that you see about them all. Firstly, they’re all online. What isn’t these days? They also all have some form of an automated algorithm to do something around portfolio management construction and capability and advice. And then I guess the final point – and there are differences emerging now in this area – is they tend not to involve any form of human financial planner. And I think that’s where this marketplace is becoming really interesting. Robo-advice in itself is pretty much a US term. I think almost everyone I speak to in the UK doesn’t like the term, and indeed if you look at the FAMR report produced back in March, that doesn’t really use the term robo-advice at any single point in the report; talking more about automated advice and streamlined advice and so on.
PRESENTER: But, given the description we’ve got there, is it a threat to financial advisers?
NICK EATOCK: I think it’s a threat if they do nothing. But it’s almost a massive opportunity. It’s very rare that I talk to a financial adviser these days – and I talk to them every single week, they’re the people we provide our services to – it’s very rare to find one who doesn’t understand that this could be part of their future framework, their future operating model. Actually what you do see these days is you hear of advisers who are saying actually more often than not I’m turning clients or potential clients away, simply because maybe their asset value isn’t high enough to warrant the full cost of advice and so on.
Indeed FAMR, as we’ve mentioned just a few moments ago, FAMR was very much set up to recognise the fact that RDR despite all of its good outcomes, and there were many good outcomes, also had some bad outcomes. Not least the advice gap that’s been created as a result of it. So FAMR set out to produce, I think their strapline was affordable and accessible financial advice for all at any of their life stages – which is quite a big mission. Quite challenging I would say for pure robo-advice to deliver everything at all stages of a client’s circumstances. Which is why I think this is a hybrid model, you know, and it’s not going to all be robo or all be automated, and it’s not going to be all traditionally advisers as things have been historically. It is going to be a blend of the two. And that’s where I think the real opportunity for financial adviser businesses lies.
PRESENTER: How do you, I suppose one thing with robo-advice, let’s call it that, is it’s very much a transactional model; whereas advice I guess is seen as not being particularly transactional, much more consultative. How do you get the best of both worlds if you’re an adviser?
NICK EATOCK: Well I think that comes back to the constraint of pure robo-advice. Because you’re right, most of them are very transactional. And success for a robo-adviser is deemed in terms of getting a transaction to happen, because they earn, bluntly they earn their money if you make a transaction. Which is where in a more blended model, actually some of the technology for example that we offer, tries to almost in some circumstances where it’s not relevant absolutely pushes people away from an automated advice process, because if it’s not right for them it’s not the right thing to do. And that’s why I think actually again why this blended model is going to be far more effective for advisers for sure, but also for the end customer.
PRESENTER: If we just step back and just go to the threats from robo-advice, the bit of the industry outside of financial advisers. I mean are you, or should advisers be worried by the rise of so called self-directed investors, that actually with algorithm, we’re all pretty similar, so actually if you’ve got an algorithm that takes that into account you can do it yourself, you don’t need the advisers?
NICK EATOCK: Absolutely, well we’ve had a degree of that for some time. Certainly globally but even here in the UK there’s a number of providers that offer a more self-directed service; Hargreaves Lansdowne are a great example of that. There was some really interesting research produced by Salesforce earlier this year, when they took 5,000 UK consumers, some of them advised and some of them not advised, and asked them how do you manage our investments today, and how would you like to do that in the future? And across that sample size about 21% of them had a financial adviser, and their financial adviser managed all of their investments for them. They’re obviously doing a pretty good job because the future state was also 21%, so that was good.
Where it became really interesting is in that kind of collaboration, so how many of those individuals managed their investments in collaboration with their adviser? And then the DIY, the self-directed. And in the research that Salesforce did, 66% of those individuals managed it entirely themselves, they were the DIYers. When asked did they see that being the way they would be going forward, that 66% dropped right down to just 9%. And it all went into the middle column, which isn’t I’m going to get my adviser to do everything, and it isn’t I’m going to do everything, it’s a collaborative approach. And it’s where those clients were saying, those individuals were saying I’d like to do it in collaboration with my adviser. And I think that’s going to be the model of the future, and that’s where financial advisers have a great opportunity, because they already have that relationship and that capability.
PRESENTER: You mentioned robo-advice really has come in from the States. Where has it worked best in the US; what have been the success stories and what have been the failures?
NICK EATOCK: There are a bunch of success stories, but they all or many of them arrived around a certain moment in time when a lot of them pivoted their business models. So if you look at the States I think the successful robo-advisers, and I believe there are about 200 in total, so there’s a lot of players. It’s a big marketplace so you can understand that perhaps. Players like Betterment for example I think have about $5bn assets under management. Wealthfront are about $4bn, Personal Capital about $3bn, and then there are players like Vanguard and others who’ve come in and sometimes it’s quite difficult to determine whether that, what portion of that can be attributed to robo and what’s more attributed to financial advice.
But what is clear about pretty much all of them is that they, many of them started with a completely D2C-type model with no financial adviser input at all. And their asset growth was good but not spectacular. They then pivoted many of them, and they pivoted to be aligned to either existing financial adviser groups, RIAs in the States, or they brought in house financial adviser capability, much like the Vanguards of the world do. And then the asset growth was phenomenal. So I think this model here is about taking what essentially is a piece of technology and a capability, and aligning that for a financial adviser with their own business model – which will be a changing business model in this world, but a business model that very much supports all the strengths and capability of a regular adviser.
PRESENTER: So if you’re an adviser in the UK, is this a question that robo, for want of a better word, allows you to do totally new things, or does it allow you to do existing things much better?
NICK EATOCK: I think robo as it should be in the UK is a model where it’s a subset of just digital advice. And sometimes that digital advice will be about an automated solution which takes an individual straight through, risk profiling, capacity for loss, projections, suitability, right the way through to transaction – and that’s great, not another human hand needs to touch that process. But sometimes it will be about directing the individual to a more traditional advised process. So that’s clearly a change for financial advisers, but it’s a change which recognises a different segmentation of their clients. They have struggled, many advisers, to advise say clients with less than £50k assets under management. That seems to have been, seems to be a threshold for many advisers, whether it’s the right number or not is debatable, but there’s certainly a threshold.
So this kind of advent or this advent of capability really starts allowing advisers to say what do I want to look like as a business going forward? So advisers often come to me and say typically we advise per adviser circa anywhere from 100 to 150 clients. How could I get to 250? How could I get to 350 per adviser? And will I be offering different models for those clients in those different camps? And the answer is yes you will be, and also yes you can with this new kind of capability.
PRESENTER: Well let’s stick with the, if you like the pipeline business, those who individually don’t perhaps, it doesn’t make sense for a traditional advice model. Let’s call them millennials so they might be potential earners in the future but not today. How does that robo-advice model potentially help you? Are you offering a full advice service, is it simplified advice, what is it?
PRESENTER: I mean to start with, it’s very easy to draw stereotypes because there can be some millennials out there who are fantastically wealthy. We were talking about Mark Zuckerberg before the cameras on and he would be in that camp.
PRESENTER: Yes, our dream millennial.
NICK EATOCK: Yes, but our average, mister or missus average millennial typically is someone who wouldn’t in an ordinary world be going to an adviser and getting the benefit of financial advice; yet in this new world with pensions freedoms and more responsibility put on the individual, actually they should be doing something about their future. They should be investing, they should be accumulating wealth, they should be understanding their risk and so on. So how can you create an environment which is, back to FAMR, affordable and accessible? And I think for people typically in that segment actually allowing an advisory business to produce an automated advice capability for people in that segment is a really great start in life.
And at some point those millennials are going to grow into 30 and 40 and 50-something year-olds, and they will have different requirements. They will go through those typical life stages where traditional advice, albeit some of it I think assisted through digital, actually will be the important thing for them to do at that point. And they’d rather be doing that, ask any adviser, you talk to any adviser and say, they would far rather someone come to them with a pocket or basket of assets which was worth something rather than worth nothing at a later stage in life. They’re not magicians; they can’t magic the assets from nowhere.
PRESENTER: What’s the regulatory status then? If you’re offering something that from the sound of it is not a full advice service, what would you need to do as an adviser?
NICK EATOCK: Well, it is, automated advice is a restricted proposition. So whether it’s simplified, streamlined, there’s all sorts of terms for this. I think that FAMR tried to simplify that very much so. But it is a restricted proposition that looks typically at one set of a client’s circumstances or objectives. Now businesses who, traditionally financial adviser businesses who are traditionally independent can still have a restricted arm. Obviously those that are restricted already can continue down that line. You just need to make it incredibly clear to the end client what it is they’re getting, what it is that they’re paying for.
PRESENTER: Well if we move on to if you like your core client base, an adviser, the ones that do work under an existing advice model, wanted to talk through some of the areas where this digital support can help you. So I mean if we start with I suppose the beginning of the journey, the fact find, what can you do there that’s different?
NICK EATOCK: Lots and lots. I mean the traditional fact find approach for many people, many customers, is a horrible process. It can take an hour, an hour-and-a-half of someone, an adviser asking you questions that in some cases you find embarrassing because you don’t know the answer to. Not all customers understand every single financial policy, pension or investment that they’ve signed up to. They don’t know what they’re all worth. They don’t know who the underlying product provider was. So it becomes a really challenging process typically for a client. And if you look at a traditional approach of a fact find let’s say filled in on paper via an adviser sat with their client, there are very often lots of gaps or question marks about well I’ll find that one out later.
So it’s not a great process, and actually if it’s a, I think very often they’re more of a guess find than a fact find. If you turn the tables there and allow the end client to go into a client portal and fill in that information ahead of a meeting with an adviser, firstly what you get is a very different experience for the end client. You’re going to have an experience which they can carry out over a number of days. Maybe they sit at home in the evening, a glass of wine, going through their filing box or wherever they keep all of this stuff, and adding the data incrementally. What you can also do with that approach is make it more engaging, because digital capability can make it more meaningful for a client, will give them more information as they go through that process.
What that then means is that you find that when the adviser meets the client face-to-face for the first time. Although sometimes that is now digitally assisted but regardless, when they meet them face-to-face for the first time, the adviser already knows that information. It’s already populated their systems, enables them to go in and create the real value add in that first client meeting. So it saves the adviser time, saves the client time and creates a more meaningful meeting.
PRESENTER: You mentioned a portal there, so presumably if you’re an adviser’s client you can go into that portal at any time and see things.
NICK EATOCK: Absolutely.
PRESENTER: Is there a danger that encourages white noise, people worrying about things they shouldn’t? Financial advice is a long-term process.
NICK EATOCK: I think there is a danger of that, absolutely there’s a danger. But I think generally what it does is it increases engagement. So clients take more of an interest in what they’re doing, and if there is say a market challenge or a market drop, what you tend to find out is that the client portal becomes a great way of rather than fielding 100, 200 calls from your clients about this, about getting information out which is hopefully saying don’t panic, don’t worry, this is what’s happening. This is what we suggest you should be doing and this is how you get work going forward. That does create a different way for advisers of dealing with mass queries, absolutely, but I think a much better way.
PRESENTER: And how do you go about setting up as an adviser a strategy for that, just communicating with your clients generally, perhaps something horrible happens to the stock market, you want to get a message out, perhaps a renewal date on something is coming up, you need to get that out. I mean you Intelliflo, obviously very much a technology-based company, how do you create something like that?
NICK EATOCK: Well the first thing is obviously you need the capability to deliver that kind of service. And yes, as you say that’s the kind of stuff we do day in day out, and we like to think that we help enable the adviser to become more technology focused in this day and age where that’s very important. But equally as important is helping advisers adopt what’s there. That’s probably one of our, one of the biggest parts of our business, about ensuring that there are people within our business who can help advisers in their business understand how to make the most of this kind of capability. So we do, we help them. We have teams, we call them customer success departments that work in different elements of the technology offerings we make to advisers to help advisers adopt them, and realise huge efficiencies into their business, or huge opportunity to provide additional services to their clients.
PRESENTER: Well if we just focus on this messaging out to clients. What you’re describing, how is that different from just having an email list and knowing when to press the send button?
NICK EATOCK: Well you could do that. Absolutely you could do that, and many advisers that will be the default route. And probably for a more generic communication about the markets in general, that’s OK. There’s nothing inherently wrong with that. I think where it becomes challenging is if there’s any element of personalisation about that. Because from a data protection perspective you cannot be sending out communication which a third party could intercept and work out who the end recipient is and understand about their financial position – that’s a complete no-no. So email, and the regulators back this up as well in their interpretation of the DPA regulations, email is an inherently insecure method. You can encrypt it and make it more difficult for people to intercept, but fundamentally actually if you use a client portal where you can send secure communications just as part of the solution, it becomes a much better way, much safer way to send that information to those clients.
PRESENTER: So if the portal pings me as the client an email saying Mr Colegate, something’s happened in the market, click back on here and put in your password and you can see what it means for your portfolio, that’s fine.
NICK EATOCK: Yes, very much so. So you might get an email as a notification if you’ve got an iPhone or an android or something like that. You’ll get a push notification on your phone itself to say look I’ve got a new message. Click into that, log into that. Effectively yes, you are logging into it, and then being able to read that information. So yeah that’s a secure mechanism.
PRESENTER: And how interactive can you be with documents? Because I mean again as clients of advisers often there’s paperwork to be filled in, to be sent back. We all remember the sticky notes saying signing this, don’t sign this bit, all of this great wodge of paperwork comes over. How interactive can a client be with that via a portal?
NICK EATOCK: It’s a really good question and you’re right, as a client of advisers myself I find that process and have found that over the years quite a challenging process. Too many things to sign, takes too long and you seem to be forever filling in and scanning or posting things back. And because of that one of the things that we’re introducing at the beginning of next year into our client portal technology is an integrated document, electronic document signing capability in partnership with DocuSign to deal with exactly that process. To allow the documents that an adviser needs to get a client to be signed to be done intuitively and within the solutions that they offer out to the client. So I think that’s going to be really effective. I know our advisers are very excited about that.
PRESENTER: So just so I understand it, does this mean you can, there will be an electronic signature you can use or?
NICK EATOCK: Yes, electronic signature. So just the same as before we were saying how you might receive a notification or an email to say your adviser has sent you something. That sent you something will be a document, and you can open that from within either the mobile or the web-based version of the client portal. Read the document there and then, sign it there and then. That automatically passes that back to the adviser, so it streamlines their processes. But from a client perspective also stores those signed documents against their own client vault. So they don’t need to scan them and file them somewhere else. So it creates a better environment I think for everyone in the process.
PRESENTER: And you were mentioning a little earlier about, you were saying about having client meetings and then saying actually with digital you don’t necessarily have to have them in the traditional way. What is a digital meeting?
NICK EATOCK: A digital meeting, well firstly a digital meeting is not going to work for all. But actually for many it can do. If you think of the current process, very often clients of advisers are busy people themselves, and organising a regular quarterly, six monthly, annual meeting with your client can be challenging. You’ve only got so many slots in your diary, they’ve only got so many slots in their diary, finding time in which that can happen is very often difficult, particularly if they’re still working. So you will often hear of advisers driving out in the evening to meet their clients because that’s more convenient for them, and it’s an hour long journey there. Because you’ve travelled an hour the client won’t let, will almost feel honour bound to make sure that the meeting is of a reasonable duration. So that eats into their lives too. So all of that creates an interesting dynamic.
Virtual meetings through integrated video, integrated voice, integrated chat, all compliantly stored and the conversation and components of that stored back against the adviser’s back office systems, creates an environment where you can have those meetings at any time of day. And people don’t need to get ready and clean the house before the adviser comes.
NICK EATOCK: What advantage have you got over just a phone call?
NICK EATOCK: Yes, phone call works as well absolutely. And in some circumstances that’s a great means. But what we’re seeing is that because the client portal, which is a great way of sharing information about the client’s overall portfolio, overall net worth, becomes in itself a real talking point. And allows the client to ask questions about certain areas, and it allows the adviser to point out information about other areas perhaps. By doing that in an integrated co-browsing or video environment it allows you to use that as a prompt, or the documents that you send them electronically allows those as ways of prompting the conversation and helping the conversation be more effective, which is difficult to do entirely over a phone call.
PRESENTER: And how do you keep your contemporaneous notes from this virtual meeting? Does the portal allow you to do that?
NICK EATOCK: Yes, very much so. It automatically records any of the conversational notes, so the call, the conversation we’re having right now that would automatically be recorded back against your client notes in your own back office system.
PRESENTER: And I suppose one other key thing to ask about with clients is when it comes to risk profiling. We hear an awful lot about risk profiling, can it be done properly just with a questionnaire online, or do you need to have a person there?
NICK EATOCK: It depends on what part of the process I think that you’re trying to deal with. So I mean actually if you look at most of the traditional risk profiling tools today, most of them absolutely you’re right, were designed to facilitate a face-to-face meeting, would be delivered in that way. So the adviser can help out with some of the more nuanced elements of that. Having said that there are some very successful risk profiling capabilities out there today who actually drive the client to fill that document, answer the questions, fill the questionnaire in at their own leisure without the adviser being there. Businesses like FinaMetrica and so on, that’s the way it happens.
What you do then find out in even those circumstances is the information then comes back to the adviser, and then the adviser often will have a conversation with the client about it. And this all really relates to what particular need or what part of the advice process you’re looking to deal with. Automated advice is a separate piece in itself I think. I think that deals with a relatively simple restricted need for a simple objective. And the risk profiling that needs to happen there has to be systemised and can be systemised, because it’s a very focused way forward.
PRESENTER: Do you offer, I mean for the pure advice business not a simplified advice, do you offer a risk profiling tool?
NICK EATOCK: We do, and we work with all the risk profile, or pretty much all of the risk profiling solutions out there. As a business we’re a very open business. We believe in best of breed partnerships with people who provide capability in lots of areas. We don’t feel as a business that we need to provide everything for a financial adviser. We’d rather created them a nice hub by which they can link in the different capabilities that they want to to satisfy their own business model.
PRESENTER: I suppose with any tool, particularly online, one of the key things is making sure you’ve filled it in correctly. Because good data in, great results out. Nothing in, blanks start to emerge. Again if you are using this more technology-based platform approach as an adviser, how much of your time is then spent filling in boxes, typing stuff in after meetings, and how much is it all automatically captured? And if so can you be sure the right stuff comes out the end when you press a button six months later and you need it?
NICK EATOCK: Well think of the process now, and it goes back to the fact find I think for me. So historically a fact find in the UK produced by mister regular adviser out there would be some handwritten scrawl on that, which when they get back to the office they’d hand to an administrator or a power planner or someone and say can you type that all in? So they try and decipher your handwriting, which if it’s anything like mine is pretty ropy, and they will make mistakes going through that process. That’s expensive and time consuming actually. If you get the client to fill it in directly themselves, there is far less opportunity for those inaccuracies to happen. So I actually think that’s a better approach. It’s more cost effective for both the client and the adviser, so that’s the great way of working.
The advice process itself, particularly if you try and unite the different elements of it, including the recommendation, the client’s signature, the more you can deliver that through the technology the less opportunity there is for those inaccuracies. But at the same time you have to respect the fact that many advisers out there have the conversation, the conversation is the biggest single value add part of the process that they do, and so you need to provide capability that augments that rather than replaces it totally. And we think we’ve done that.
PRESENTER: One question is would a traditional client base of an adviser, perhaps in their late 40s, 50s, 60s, how comfortable will they be with all this new technology?
NICK EATOCK: It’s a really good question, and one I get asked all the time. And different people, different advisers will have different views on their client bank. Is my client bank suitable for this? The reality is that when we look at the data, and we’ve got over 500, between 500 and 700 advice businesses across the UK using this kind of capability to service their clients. What you find out from all of that data is that actually the single biggest age demographic of clients who use this is people in their 60s. Now to some advisers that’s no that can’t possibly be the case, but the reality is it is. And in some ways I think it’s understandable. Clients in their 60s have perhaps got more time on their hands if they’re retired. They’re also these days very used to using technology. They’ll be using Skype to talk to their kids and the grandkids, and that’s just a way in which they roll. And giving them access to information actually is very empowering.
So I think that traditional segmentation that this is all about the millennials and it’s only for the young, I think is probably wrong. I think we’re more complex and nuanced individuals than that. I hope we are.
PRESENTER: More digital natives out there than you might imagine.
NICK EATOCK: Yes.
PRESENTER: I suppose the other, we’re almost out of time but very important question about technology is how expensive is it? I mean you’ve mentioned groups like Vanguard in the States doing well in robo-advice, but they’re a huge organisation. How much do you need to spend to get yourself up and running?
NICK EATOCK: Well I think yes, there are a lot of organisations in the States, some of the ones we mentioned earlier who have taken lots and lots of venture capital money to build their capability. And doing this stuff from scratch is an expensive exercise, and certainly not for the fainthearted. And that’s why we provide a capability that allows adviser businesses to have this out of the box. So our personal finance portal is available as a free part of our solution, there’s no setup cost, no ongoing cost, it’s just a free part of our solution.
PRESENTER: Personal finance portal, that’s the bit that the end client of the advice.
NICK EATOCK: That’s right yes, that’s the client portal capability. We then as part of that offer the automated or robo-advice capability. And again that’s free to set up, free to use for advisers. Where we do take a charge is if that’s successful for the adviser. So if people actually start transacting through that, then yes we do levy a charge to the adviser. But for them it’s a no win no fee basis, and that makes it very effective for them to complement their traditional advice model.
PRESENTER: If you’re an adviser or indeed a client who’s not used this before, and I take your point that people are better with tech than perhaps we imagine, but how long would it take someone to get up to speed with it?
NICK EATOCK: Up to speed with which bits?
PRESENTER: Just using it and feeling comfortable with the system if I was a client and you an adviser.
NICK EATOCK: Well what we’re seeing from a client perspective is that people regularly use this capability all the time. So the clients who are using the client portal, personal finance portal today, 58% of them go in every single month. And that’s a far greater level of engagement than they ever did pre that capability. So they’re obviously finding it easy to go in and access the information they want. And these days you can get really great insights into, through digital capability what bits really interest an end customer. And what we are seeing is that they are very interested in their overall net worth. They are very interested in being able to communicate effectively with their adviser. They’re very interested in getting a more graphical engaging view of their finances in general. Many of them are now using it to budget just their daily lives, and that’s really effective for end clients.
So they are, they do find this capability something that they’re used to. Crikey, most of us have mobile phones in our pockets. Most of us are used to downloading and using apps pretty much on an everyday basis. So yes, I think the capability is out there.
PRESENTER: Is there anyone people haven’t done well with this technology as you look back? You’ve talked about a lot of the positives, but are there obvious errors people make, errors of omission, long ways round the houses to get something done? Any sort of anecdote there? So anyone coming to it can think well that’s something I can learn off?
NICK EATOCK: I think from an adviser’s perspective yes absolutely, I think so. So I think one of the things that we’ve discovered through rolling out this capability is that it is new for the advisers. So they do need to understand how it becomes part of their advice model and not a complete replacement for it. Very often that means that it’s probably best rolled out in conjunction with the annual or quarterly or six monthly service review, so we do find that most advisers will roll this capability and accessibility out to their clients when they’re going through that service review. That’s a good time and a good point to get their own data in order, because they are now sharing it with the client. And what they then find out is that the subsequence meetings and reviews actually this just becomes the standard way by which they can share that information and have that conversation with the clients.
So that’s not immediately apparent to advisers if they’ve never done this before. So I think it’s certainly part of our responsibility to make sure that we share the best practice elements of how this capability can be used within their advice model. And that’s something we do.
PRESENTER: Final question, if you had an adviser in front of you who didn’t use any of this, and you had to give them the elevator pitch on why they should think about going digital, what would it be?
NICK EATOCK: For me the biggest warning almost to advisers who don’t do this is, it came out of the RBC Cap Gemini World Wealth Report in 2014. It’s a great report, well worth downloading and having a look at. But one section of that report asked the really relevant and damaging question if it’s not answered. The question they asked a bunch of advised clients around the world was how likely is it that you will fire your financial adviser if they don’t offer their services to you digitally in the next five years? 65% of clients said yes they would. So yeah, that’s on the negative side. But on the positive side again there’s lots of research out there, and we’re seeing this from our own client bank, that says if you enable technology within your business you are going to be more effective.
Fidelity in the US last year produced research of I think about just over 900 US advice firms, and found that those advisers that adopted technology, they called them e-advisers, within their business. Those advisers that did that had better business metrics on every single level than the advisers who didn’t adopt technology. So that’s really important. We also did some research amongst our own user base, and found out that those advisers that really adopt the technology deliver a return on investment of anywhere from 100% to 600%. So there’s vast improvements that clients can make in their own business models in terms of efficiency and revenue earning opportunities, and together with that happier clients.
PRESENTER: We have to leave it there. Nick Eatock, thank you.
NICK EATOCK: Thank you very much.