Later Life

177 | Intergenerational wealth planning

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Tutors:

  • Matt Ward, Communications Director, AKG
  • Andrew Tully, Technical Director, Canada Life
  • Sean Osborne, Group Head of Sales, Charles Stanley

Learning outcomes:

  1. The size and opportunity set within the later life market
  2. The soft skills needed to develop a client base
  3. Why intergenerational planning can help increase the value of an adviser business

www.charles-stanley.co.uk/insights/knowledge/akg-research-briefing-2021

Channel

Later Life
PRESENTER: Intergenerational wealth planning is of growing importance, and it’s going to be the focus of this academia learning unit. Taking us through the material are Sean Osborne, who’s group head of sales at Charles Stanley; Matt Ward, communications director at AKG; and Andrew Tully, Technical Director at Canada Life. Let’s start with a look at the learning outcomes. These are taking a look at the size and the opportunity set within the later life market, the soft skills needed to develop a client base, and why intergenerational planning can help to increase the value of an adviser business. And now let’s join this Akademia panel discussion. Andrew Tully, we’re talking about intergenerational wealth planning, just how broad a market does that cover? ANDREW TULLY: So it covers a huge market. The desire to pass on wealth to family is not new. I guess a key difference that we’ve seen over the last 10 years or so is the baby boom generation reaching kind of early retirement and so they’ve obviously got more substantial wealth perhaps than previous generations. So there’s that desire to pass that wealth down to family. And that wealth can come in lots of areas. Obviously lots of it is in property, so bricks and mortar, which has its own challenges, and I’m sure we’ll discuss that as we go on through the next half hour or so. But also pension wealth, pension wealth pensions traditionally were all about retirement income but over the last five or six years since pension freedom, pensions have suddenly become probably the most tax efficient way of cascading wealth down through the generations. So whether it’s in those, whether it’s in bonds, savings, all that kind of wealth can be passed down to family. The key is about planning. PRESENTER: And Canada Life I think is sort of traditionally seen as a pension provider, but would you say on the back of what you’ve described it’s becoming a much sort of richer service that you’re offering and that your advisers that you work with are offering perhaps? ANDREW TULLY: Yes absolutely. So I’m fortunate enough to head up a great technical team. So we work with advisers around specific cases about complex cases, about how people can structure passing on wealth down the generations. And whether that’s use of trusts and tax planning, whether that’s the use of pensions, hopefully we’re helping advisers to put in place the suitable arrangements for their clients. PRESENTER: Matt Ward, we talked there about this intergenerational wealth transfer that’s beginning to happen, is it, why are we having this conversation now, are these particularly pertinent times to be having it? MATT WARD: I think so yes. I think if you look at some of the stats generally from people like the ONS, there’s said to be 15.5m people over the age of 60 at the moment. So we know people have talked about baby boom, as we know a wave of the generation is coming into retirement and they’re going to be living through retirement so it’s a huge issue. And pension freedoms, six years ago now, has changed the dial on the organisation of people’s wealth. PRESENTER: Thank you. And finally, Sean Osborne, can you tell us a little bit about what you’re seeing, because you’re out talking to advisers, you’ve got your own direct side of the business with clients, what are you seeing? SEAN OSBORNE: Yes so I’ve been here at Charles Stanley now just a little over three years and in that time we’ve really seen these sort of intergenerational wealth transfer discussions sort of increase. We noticed this quite early on in the cycle. And we started off with our Book of Stories and our Book of Stories 2.0 which were our own white papers. And then we’ve linked in with AKG and Canada Life last year looking at the value of advice and then moved into the paper that we’ve just completed on intergenerational wealth planning. And the reason for that is because whenever we go out and talk to clients about intergenerational wealth planning, the increase in interest is expediential. And has been none more so than when COVID has obviously come across and sort of changed everything again with people really having those conversations in the broader family about intergenerational wealth planning and some of the challenges that it brings. PRESENTER: Well, you mentioned that report and I know you’ve done it with AKG and Canada Life, so Matt can you tell us a little bit about the sort of statistical and qualitative underpin behind it? MATT WARD: Yes so AKG is an independent company that we sit in between providers of propositions, platforms, investment solutions and the advisers and paraplanners that use them. So we’re in a unique place to look at what’s driving the market, strategic developments, what people need to focus. We did a piece of work on the future of advice in 2020. One of the elements within that that became obvious was that there was an opportunity for intergenerational planning as a specific piece. So we came to the table again to do another independent report. Each of these papers that AKG does we’ll underpin with fresh research, so we spoke to 2,000 consumers, we had a quantitative online survey with 100 advisers, and we also embellished that with some qualitative telephone interviews with advisers which gives us some really nice depth to things. And the opportunity was clear, nearly 90% of advisers surveyed felt that intergenerational wealth was going to grow in the next five years. So we can just see that opportunity right there for adviser firms, as we’ll discuss today, if they choose to take up the baton with this. PRESENTER: Now, you mentioned a little earlier, I think 15.6m people over retirement age in the UK at the moment. Have you got some equivalent figure for how much wealth the over 60s or over 65s have got? MATT WARD: I’m led to believe from what you see that it’ll run into trillions. Andrew’s talked about property wealth. If you look at the breadth of what wealth represents within a family, this is more than just about a pension pot, more than just about an ISA, so it’s a significant sum. PRESENTER: And, Andrew, we always here the 80/20 rule: 80% of your business as an adviser comes from 20% of your clients. If you start talking to the next generation and the generation after that, isn’t there a danger asking advisers to spend an awful lot of time talking to people with very small pots of money, they’re just, you know, why would I bother? ANDREW TULLY: So, why you would bother, I guess, is to protect assets you have. So if you have existing clients who die, as somewhat inevitably will, and that money goes down to the next generation, if you’ve not built that relationship with the next generation then potentially as a firm you lose control of that money. And second it’s all about building a business as well. So as, you know, the traditional saying is most advisers have clients about the same age as them, so or maybe just slightly older, so if you have a group of clients who are all ageing, you will begin to decumulate, you’ll begin to take assets in some way to help them with retirement long-term care, things like that. So the firm begins to lose assets under management. So if you can start to build the next generation coming through, and you’re right, maybe that’s maybe not all of the time your firm’s doing but a little bit of the time that the firm can do building that next generation then you’re building the assets up again within the firm. PRESENTER: And Sean is that the case then that in this market there’s more than enough product out there, this is about a sort of slightly softer skillset, or are we still deficient in the area of product when it comes to solving some of these issues? SEAN OSBORNE: I think it’s a real combination and I think as an industry our profession is as technically proficient as it ever has been. And I think the technical skills that advisers show now are extremely strong. What’s blending with that though is the softer skills, the sort of EQ element of that conversation, and about being able to open up and sort of facilitate some of these conversations. The research has shown that’s where a number of clients are seeing real value, actually is having someone who can help them facilitate some often somewhat challenging conversations across the broader family which drive in real interest and build on that. And if I could just touch on something Andrew said also, if it’s kind of back to the, if you don’t have an intergenerational wealth strategy yourself within your own business, there’s an opportunity there that actually someone else may have an intergenerational wealth strategy that’s set up. And of course clients talk and they’re not all advised by the same adviser. And so the chance of losing a client even before the client passes away and losing the assets out of the business, it’s probably greater than we sort of realise. And that’s because it is a growing area of interest and something that clients are really keen to delve into in greater granularity than perhaps ever before, certainly around some of those softer elements and facilitating some of these challenging conversations you can have when the subject of passing wealth through a family comes to fruition. MATT WARD: I’d add to that. I think the market broadly does a good job of providing solutions, it’s what we’ve always focused on, whatever type of provider we are, we bring things to market, it’s a competitive market, so that kind of almost looks after itself. I think certainly coming through loud and clear from the paper is this ability to develop skillsets. And it won’t always be easy, this isn’t an open goal, discussions with families as we well know as we approach Christmas and we think about being around the table with relatives, are not always the most relaxed of discussions. So family discussions, disputes and planning, they’re going to take some new skills, behavioural, empathetic; it’s going to be a slightly different type of dialogue you need to have. PRESENTER: Well I want to dig into that in a second, but before I do, just one quick potential objection to that, that which is if you say I just don’t want my business to get dragged into the middle of a family dispute or unwittingly set one off. Not least because if something goes wrong, I mean you’re going to be in a regulated, my business is going to be in a regulatory crosshair, it’s just asymmetric the payoff, why would I bother? MATT WARD: Yes so coming through, you know, as I said this isn’t an open goal, it’s a huge opportunity, but it doesn’t mean to say every adviser business is just going to walk straight into it. When we asked about concerns about the opportunity, the top two things that were bothering advisers were the potential involvement in a family dispute and vulnerable clients, which we also know is a huge issue for the industry. So again these are not small items that we need to smooth over. So some people will say actually I don’t want to be involved, I think is a very good question, and I think the development of training and compliance modules within intermediary firms is going to become big. How do I record this; how do I have this conversation and certainly making sure that you’re documenting all that goes on in case the right thing doesn’t happen with a family, you’ve got to get it down there. So there’s going to be a huge requirement whether it comes from providers to help with training, specialist firms on vulnerability and family disputes. So yes it won’t be straightforward. PRESENTER: Sean? SEAN OSBORNE: Yes just on that, I completely agree, it’s certainly not straightforward, and I agree with everything that Matt’s said, but on the back of that, COVID has been a huge thing that we’ve all experienced in the last sort of 12 to 18 months. And if it’s done anything, if there’s been any positive that’s come out of COVID, I think it has brought a number of families closer together. And it’s enabled people perhaps to think about those conversations that they really do want to have but perhaps have been putting off for a period of time. And I think that’s opened up again that opportunity to really sit down with the family and facilitate some of those challenging conversations and add real value as sort of the trusted adviser to help the families navigate through these discussions. And certainly the one that often causes the biggest concern and what we hear back from our clients around the things that they’re trying to navigate through with family disputes or potential for family disputes there’s certainly that feeling of what’s fair. What have you done in other situations similar to this where actually I want to distribute my assets in a not even way through my children, and I think that’s a real key question that advisers can really help clients with and certainly is an area that’s… PRESENTER: Andrew, what are your thoughts on that? ANDREW TULLY: Yes so I completely agree. I think COVID has, it’s probably brought mortality to the forefront of people minds that, you know, it’s made them realise that things can happen that they don’t necessarily want to happen, they can happen sooner than they think. It’s maybe not always 10, 15, 20 years away, it could be sooner. So to do that planning now is kind of a key to that. I think going back to that, disputes, absolutely disputes can happen, but I guess two points about doing it earlier rather than later. One is the donor is part of that discussion. So you’re not trying to second guess what that individual may have got because they’re part of your conversation, they’re in the room and they can say, you know, the reason I wanted to give this person slightly more than that person is because of this, that and that, but also having some of those discussions immediately following someone’s death just brings a whole level of complexity, intention and everyone’s got their own grief to handle in a way. So doing it at an earlier date when they’re not dealing with that specific grief can just make things a bit easier as well. So I think there’s some real plusses to having these conversations, difficult conversations but having them at an earlier point in time. PRESENTER: So always be on the front foot and let people know what’s going to happen in a worst case scenario before you get there. ANDREW TULLY: Absolutely. I mean unfortunately my father died this year and, you know, I would really have liked to have sat down and, you know, we had various discussions but just sat down and had more specific discussions about, even things just like funeral and songs, you know, some of those things that you would pull out of a discussion like this. It’s not always about finances; sometimes it’s just about what you do as a family and how you work together as a family. SEAN OSBORNE: Yes and you make a great point, because the risk is if actually families don’t truly understand, if beneficiaries don’t understand the reasons why decisions are being made, there’s every chance that the case will go into some type of dispute, formal and legally, and the number of probate cases that are at dispute are at an all-time high. And I think that’s perhaps driven by those conversations not taking place at the outset. So beneficiaries don’t really understand why decisions have been made or why things have been undertaken in a certain manner. And for me that’s a real own goal that we can avoid if we actually sit down and open up that conversation. As challenging as some of those may be, if you facilitate that conversation at the earliest possible opportunity I think it gives everyone a chance to really understand why decisions are being made. Because ultimately it’s not a one size fits all, there’s no straight line assumptions and it’ll be very personal to every individual family. PRESENTER: Well, on that, given the research that you’ve been overseeing, are there any tips as to who in the family across generations you should start the conversation with. MATT WARD: Yes I mean I think for an adviser business, we know all roads have tended to start with a primary client. It’s obvious, that is the person they’ve been looking after. But what comes through in the research is and as we’ve talked about today, it’s got to start to broaden out from that. If you approach retirement as an adviser, your client’s approaching retirement as a client, if they were unfortunate enough to pass away, have you got those relationships in place. So what we’re talking about is how do you broaden that, how do you bring people into play. Families are unique, as we’ve discussed again but, you know, that’s likely to be children in the first instance. But when you look at gifting habits as we did with some of the consumers, there are gifts to both children and gifts to grandchildren. So you’re seeing this already happening within families, I think for advisers it’s trying to help them plan some of these. One real positive, we’ve talked about COVID, it’s been a catalyst for so many things, as horrible as it’s been, is that getting the wider family units to a meeting, is it easier via Zoom and Teams than it is getting people in locations. So there have been small wins for adviser businesses in terms of being able to facilitate these types of discussions with families. ANDREW TULLY: I think one of the other things to factor in is that there’s more and more complex families. So there’s more divorces, particularly later age, so later life probably got increasing divorce area, so there’s more remarriages, stepchildren, more complex families, and that just brings a whole added dimension to these things, again where disputes or unhappiness can arise in these kind of situations. So again that another key area where advisers can facilitate those conversations to try and make sure that everyone’s on the same page and everyone understands what’s going on in that kind of situation. PRESENTER: And, Andrew, you were mentioning earlier that on the whole advisers tend to be about the same age as their client base from rule of thumb, does this mean if you’re an adviser firm you should really be looking at recruiting somebody who’s the age of the next generation, is it easier for a 30-year-old to talk to a 30-year-old than…? ANDREW TULLY: Yes I mean so many reasons I think as, you know, a profession that advisers do want to be bringing younger people in, and I think some firms are trying very hard to bring in younger advisers. Partly it’s all about the future of their business. So lots of advisers probably in their 50s, it’s a little bit of a cliché but I think it’s probably true, there’s lots of advisers around that age, so if we can pull younger advisors in. it’s also probably a good way for a younger adviser maybe to cut their teeth and do some of those maybe more straightforward discussions with the younger generation, which are a bit more straightforward all about accumulation and things like that, which tends to be a little bit more easier and simpler. That’s probably a good way for that younger adviser to cut their teeth. PRESENTER: Sean? SEAN OSBORNE: Just whilst I agree that it’s important for advisers to build a younger generation coming through, sort of a legacy for their own advice firm, what I would also say is I don’t necessarily think you have to be the same generation to deal with the same generation of clients. I think what’s really important is for advisers who are interested in this market is whatever generation they’re dealing with, they’re asking really open questions without any sort of preconceptions of, you know, what the solution may be, simply because of the uniqueness that we see through each individual family unit. And I think asking really open questions and really listening to those individual challenges that are being faced is important. So, one of the things that did come of the AKG report that I was really surprised to see was around the gifting piece. Now I don’t think any beneficiary would want to see their parents come to any type of financial hardship in later life, but yet 17% of those donors then didn’t have an emergency fund following gifting. And I think that’s a huge question to be answered there and all, a huge thing to take into account, sorry there. And also something that needs to be considered. Because when does a gift suddenly become a loan. And we are all living longer and the social care sort of challenges I think are well known and well documented, and what’s the point of having a gift that comes back into you actually if in 10 years’ time the money needs to be recalled so that you can put your parents through the best possible care that you’d certainly want to put them through. ANDREW TULLY: I think that’s where advisers can particularly help is to structure that in the way that (a) minimises tax but (b) also gives control. If that control is needed by the donor, you can set it up and structure it in a trust in a suitable way that the donor can have access to that money. So I think that’s where advisers bring that expertise. But people not being advised would likely just potentially pass money out without necessarily thinking about what it might mean (a) for tax, (b) for future needs. And the adviser can make sure that that’s structured in a suitable way to minimise tax and also minimise any unforeseen consequences coming back to bite them in 10, 15 years’ time. PRESENTER: But, Matt, a lot of advisers will probably say well I’m kind of in this market already as a result of the clients I have, anything that came out of the research on how they can really upskill and build out that experience, the competence, the professional relationships to help them develop it further? MATT WARD: So 42% said that they were proactively having discussions more broadly about intergenerational planning. So you’re right, people are already, lots of businesses are thinking about it. I think this is all about the degree to which they want to be involved. I think the benchmark for the industry should be to help people mitigate IHT. We’re aware that consumers are nervous about being caught by IHT, it happens to more families now. So for me the benchmark for an advice business should be to try and help there, if they’re doing anything. If they then want to try and spread that further, as we’ve talked about, how do you work with younger generations, we’ll come onto how do we make that economical which is a proverbial chicken and egg discussion for the industry, but there’s also nervousness about requirements for legal skills, wills, probate. So there are so many things an adviser business might not be doing all themselves at the minute. They might be able to grow some talent and some capability internally, but the likelihood is they’re going to need some strong third party relationships, so to be proactive with solicitors to get that legal aim, anyone specialist on wills and trusts. There’s some great planning that can be built in there, the financial advice business might not need to do it all, but they might be able to bring some good people to the table to help the family make these broader plans. So kind of think of it as potentially a bit more of a team effort, where they buy in these skills and support from third party relationships. PRESENTER: Well, Sean, we talked quite a lot about technical expertise, and I suppose when we hear that we think about knowledge of pensions law and regulations, but how do you build up that technical expertise in some of these softer areas we’ve been talking about? SEAN OSBORNE: I think it’s a great question, Mark. There’s a wealth of resource available to the adviser market and I think you’ll continue to see more and more active work in terms of white papers and research papers around the subject of intergenerational planning, also sort of key CPD material that will support advisers through this. Because really the technical aspects of the role are one part, but this part is much more relating to the softer skills, the EQ, the how do you open up the conversations with your clients to really understand what matters to those individual families. The resources that we have available within Charles Stanley through the Book of Stories, the Book of Stories 2.0 that we’ve run have really helped advisers open up those conversations and take some of those statistics and bring them into real life scenarios where they’ve helped others in similar situations, and we think clients are really keen to understand how have you helped others with similar challenges to me. But also clients are somewhat relieved when they find out they’re not the first person to have this challenge or feel a certain area of concern around how they distribute their assets fairly when actually it’s not a direct split between the beneficiaries. PRESENTER: Well actually I’m going to move now on to this topic of the adviser business and how you add value to it. We’ve touched on it a couple of times, is there a danger that you’re dissipating your effort as an adviser firm? ANDREW TULLY: I think a lot of it what advisers are naturally doing anyway. So a lot of it is helping the primary client and perhaps working out the best strategy for taking income out the various different wrappers they might have and if you do that in an efficient way you’re building up the estate to pass on to the next generation. It’s then almost just taking that a step further to help them cascade that money down in the best possible way. And as those papers shown, traditional that was done at death. Now people are beginning to say actually it’d be nice to do that in my lifetime, perhaps when my children and grandchildren really need the money and I can see the value. So there’s a lot of benefits to doing it for the clients obviously. For the adviser business, (a) it’s keeping the primary client happy, it’s making sure that they are in a good place, they see the value the adviser is bringing, but it’s also then building out the relationships with potential future clients, whether that’s partner, whether that’s children or maybe even grandchildren as well, and protecting the assets under management that the firm has. So I think it’s something that a lot of advisers have been doing to some degree anyway, but I think it’s only going to grow over the next 10 or 15 years. PRESENTER: Matt, does the market in the round value that approach when you see the multiples that adviser businesses pick up and they’re sold on? MATT WARD: I think it’s going to become more of an issue. So we’ve seen so much, you know, one of the things that hasn’t slowed down due to COVID is M&A activity, so it’s prolific for adviser businesses, lots of discussions about what represents good value, prices of businesses. I think as people continue to do their due diligence, they’re probably going to want to look a bit more deeply at what’s the profile of the client base, what are those demographics, many of the things we’ve talked about today. If they feel that actually they’re buying in at quite a mature client set and there are no plans in place to tap into the intergenerational opportunity that may raise some concerns. I think it’s a business development growth issue for adviser businesses that they need to say are we planning for the future or just the next couple of years, and I think to put intergen into play, you start to look out five, seven, ten years and say actually we’ve got some things we can do here. The big hairy issue is always how do we do servicing economically for people with lesser pots? As an industry we continue to discuss it. So you’ve got the primary client, who are used to making those charges, that’s let’s say a full fat advice service, but what about the places in between. How do we do technological solutions for a client that doesn’t need more than a once a year catch-up, younger members of the family, whilst it isn’t all about age, some people just don’t want to spend as much. Some adviser businesses have said that’s fine, we’ll draw a line under that. But I think they’ve got to keep coming back to the table to say how can tech get us to service in a slightly different way and bring that into play for intergenerational? SEAN OSBORNE: And that’s a really interesting point, Matt, something we’re looking at at Charles Stanley and I think you’ve seen already some other providers coming in offering sort of hybrid advice solutions which I think is part of that solution going forward. I think there is a small client strategy that advice firms perhaps need to adapt going forward to really support this whole intergeneration wealth discussion. Interestingly at our last adviser conference which was just a couple of weeks ago, picking up on a point you made earlier that our clients, one of our speakers was an M&A specialist and a consolidator is not offering any value to clients over the age of 70 unless there is a direct connection into the broader family, such is the risk that’s associated that when unfortunately that primary client passes on, the money simply walks straight out of the door. And I think that’s a real challenge that we need to be mindful of as well in the advice industry. PRESENTER: Did they give any clues as to how you value a good quality client relationship with potential. Because it sounds like there’s probably, I mean, everyone who is going to try and sell their business to you will tell you that. So do they say what they looked at? SEAN OSBORNE: I think it’s around the data more than anything. I mean data’s so important now going forward but also demonstrating, you know, you need to be able to demonstrate that you do have relationships with the family if you’re saying you’re an intergenerational sort of planning firm. There’s no point just saying I’ve got x number of clients that I look after. More importantly the conversations now around how many families you have and quality of data in these things I think is always extremely important, if it’s taking you a little while to gather together all the key information on your client bank then that tends to not be valued as highly as someone who’s got it all there crisp and to hand. ANDREW TULLY: I think as with so much of an adviser’s life unfortunately, it’s about record keeping. Almost every aspect of an adviser’s life these days is about making sure all the records are in place whether that’s around advice, around the suitability and all those bits making sure that’s all clearly documented, and I think this is another example just to document all the relationships you have within a family. PRESENTER: Sean, is there an issue that the money cascades down from generation to the next one which has perhaps got debts, house prices are incredibly high right now, that money goes to pay off a chunk of the mortgage, pay off debts, there’s nothing else left, great, great thing to do with the money but it doesn’t leave a financial planning relationship once it’s gone. SEAN OSBORNE: And I think that’s a fair point you make there, Mark and there will always be examples where that is the case. There’ll be examples where quite the opposite is true and we’re all living longer which is a great thing. So, but by natural definition of that we’re all actually inheriting much later in life as well. And so the possibilities are that a number of people that are inheriting now actually probably don’t need the money that they’re inheriting and have just created themselves an IHT problem actually from receiving that inheritance. So I believe being involved in the family as a broader piece is vitally important. There will always be some debt payoff. There’ll always be some money that’s spent through the assets. But also if it does drop into one of these sort of millennials or a younger generation who’s in an accumulation phase, I think that’s a great opportunity and a great time to demonstrate as an adviser the value that you can bring for those people that will be next, our next generation of baby boomers and our next generation of asset holders and I think that’s important that the companies have a strategy for both parts of that. PRESENTER: And Andrew a lot of what we’re talking about, in a sense it’s been predicated on the idea that people believe in family, you know, the family’s important, it continues, it goes down the generations, is that actually the case or do you come across quite a lot of clients who are perhaps interested in it for themselves? ANDREW TULLY: I think everyone’s individual. So I think that’s the starting point. I don’t think we can say for every person that one situation prevails. I think for, in my mind a large percentage of people want to pass money on to their family and that, who they specifically want to pass money on might vary situation to situation but I think there is a desire to pass well down through the generation. Interestingly we’re still seeing this kind of, or I still see this focus on property, about passing the family home down, that still seems quite a prevalent attitude, which is a slightly odd one because the likelihood is whoever receives it is just going to sell it anyway. I don’t think there’s all that many situations that people, your children would go and live in the family home because they probably have their own houses at various places. But I think many people will want to pass it down. Some children, I know I certainly said to my parents, it’s your money, you spend as much as you want, it’s not about giving it to me, but still I’m sure they would want to pass money on as well. SEAN OSBORNE: That’s quite interesting that you say that as well, because one of the pieces through all the research that we’ve done on intergenerational planning that’s come through loud and strong is the number of clients have a desire to leave a legacy, they’ve a real desire to see their wealth passed on and to leave a legacy for all of their hard work that they’ve undertaken and really see the next generation benefit from that. And I think touching on a few of the points we mentioned earlier, COVID for example, what I’ve seen is an acceleration of that actually where rather than waiting until people are past, suddenly died to pass on your legacy, people are looking to do it earlier, and that’s where the gifting has been increasing I think quite dramatically through post-COVID, where people actually want to see their relatives, their children, their grandchildren really benefit from the wealth that they’ve accumulated and see them enjoy it whilst they’re also still alive. ANDREW TULLY: Yes and that gives the donor the pleasure of as you say being able to see it in action of seeing a grandchild get on the housing ladder or pay off debt or even go on holiday, things like that. But they see the benefit that that money brings. MATT WARD: One of the keys is the organisation of this so we know, people want to gift but if this is done in more of a sporadic way, there’s the danger down the line that you pick up tax charges or events, so I think it’s back to that adviser understanding what the family wants to do, who they want to pass the money to but having a framework for that. So that’s where the value of advice is, we’re back to that, how does it offer value, how does it protect them. ANDREW TULLY: And again the clear documentation of that, I hate to come back to it but if someone’s doing it themselves, will they actually document it properly so that it would be obvious that there’s been gifts taking place or so on; whereas, if an adviser’s involved, they’ll put all the framework in place as you say. PRESENTER: We are out of time. I think on that note of about planning and paperwork we better leave it there. Sean Osborne, Matt Ward, Andrew Tully, thank you very much. All: thank you.